What does it take to make you disbelieve?

So in a random convo we were having about atheism, Danz mentions he's basically three steps from atheism (which is weird because we've called him everything from pentecostal to jewish). He also warned me that he'd never join the dark side so I can put the cookies away *sad*

I'm not sure what he is but it seems at the very least he's in the humanist realm, probably agnostic like fecking everyone. I'm sure he'll figure it out eventually if he chooses. When I asked why I couldn't convince him to join the Sith--I mean atheist legions, he said something along the lines of he didn't want to disbelieve.

Me, lacking that "belief gene", am all too willing to disbelieve but I cannot nor have I ever been able to believe. In fact, I think everyone should join the Sith and destroy the republic, and perhaps it'll happen some day, maybe it won't. I hate people who want to play Pascal's Wager, like a lot dude.

But, that's always been the curious thing, to me, about agnostics and people who are generally non-believers but aren't quite atheist (yeah it can happen).

What would it take to make you disbelieve in a deity?

Not to try to sway folks to my own side, but I've always been curious. Again, I don't think there's every been a point in my life where I've truly believed in a god of any sort so it's always puzzled me. Religions puzzle me--why is this one right and this one not? How is it possible that such and such created the universe but never makes himself known? How have these beliefs been held for centuries?

I mean, I have my theories, since as an atheist it's my unofficial job to spend my every waking, and some sleeping, hours pondering about theology *canned laughter* but I've never really gotten a solid answer on what it would take to make a believer disbelieve.

I've seen it happen. I've seen evangelical Christians suddenly turn over to atheism and preach the gospel of godlessness for various reasons or another, usually something involving utter disgust with religion. But you can believe in a god without actually belonging to a religion so, what keeps that belief going I wonder?

On the other hand, I also wonder what makes staunch atheists suddenly start praising almighty _______. I've seen that happen a lot too and it's always kinda...weird.

I think my best bet is, in both cases, you were probably never really atheist or religious to begin with and whatever property in you was just...latent, then at some point you finally felt brave enough to embrace it. But is that really it? Huh.

We're thinking of the children alright: 9 year old raped, pregnant, excommunicated?

Coz that's how it works!

Well, in case you ain't know, there's this story making its way around the blogosphere. It goes a little something like this:

A 9-year-old girl who was carrying twins, and whose stepfather is suspected of raping her, underwent an abortion on Wednesday despite complaints from Brazil's Roman Catholic Church.

The stepfather has been jailed since last week, the police said. Abortion is illegal in Brazil, the country with the most Roman Catholics, but judges can make exceptions if the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has no chance of survival. Fatima Maia, director of the public university hospital where the abortion was performed, said the pregnancy, which was in its 15th week, posed a serious risk to the girl, who weighs 80 pounds. But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a Caesarean section. "It's the law of God: Do not kill," he said in comments reported by the newspaper O Globo.

Even shorter, a 9 year old CHILD has an abortion because her stepfather raped her. She was carrying twins. Her body would not have been to handle the birth because she is so young and small. And the Roman Catholic church wants to...to...call her a murdering murderer. WITCH HUUUUNT!

No really, as if that weren't bad enough now the girl's family and the doctors that performed the abortion have been excommunicated. This is me drawing the "I give up" Xs on my eyes. Say. Fucking. What?

So, all I'm seeing is this: a little girl was raped & molested for YEARS by her stepfather, it seems that no one did much to help her, she gets pregnant with twins and has a life saving abortion. And that's pretty much all I care about, then here comes the church basically saying "eh, rape? But she killed a fetus! She killed two fetuses!"

Give me a goddamn break. Seriously? And what the fuck was a C-section going to do if she was too young to give vaginal birth? Ah, I get it, save the kids. As in, the babies, not the kid that got raped because she's unimportant right now. Oh yeah she can take care of them, she's nine (old enough to bleed you know). Oh wait, let's give them up for adoption, better option. Certainly. And leave this little girl with the knowledge that her church cared more about a fetus than her safety and her life. Never mind her body possibly not being able to carry the weight of twins, or the fact that we can't even be sure what her living conditions are like. What, were you going to take care of the kids?

_AUUUUUGHHH

Goddamn that's just unbelievable and frankly unacceptable. Unacceptable and unbelievable IN ANYONE'S GODDAMN UNIVERSE except the church I GUESS. That's pretty much all that needs to be said on that.

The Great AOL Brawl of Yesteryear

[Edit: Oh the typos. I shouldn't type while hungry.]


So, if anyone here still uses AOL (and I used to) please forgive me because I'm about to talk straight shit about these folks. For it occurred to me when I was younger and we still used the, uh, service, you know who else used it? A bunch of backwoods backward thinking head-up-ass anti-choice anti-gay racist assholes. Then, you know, just some other people.

I knew this through those little polls. You know, the "Should abortion be outlawed?" and then yes or no radio buttons, I'd click no, then pull up the results and see the bar overwhelmingly pulled for YES and, when they used to allow comments (I don't think they do anymore) it would be mass hysteria about how we're all sinners and going to hell and blah blah bliggity blah.

And I was about 12 or 13, I forget. It happened a lot on so called hot button issues, and after a few times I'd gathered up enough data to make the conclusion that my family was pretty much the only sane one using AOL.

11-14 were my horrible years: I was just turning atheist, realizing that it's okay if I don't like boys but it's NOT okay if I DO like girls, first period, bullied constantly, and going through my emolicious I Hate Everything phase. Everything just sucked sucked sucked and there are almost zero redeeming moments from those lost years.

Well, maybe one. The one day I realized that maybe I don't have to take shit from the world, even if it's just the internet. I got into an AOL brawl. I say brawl because it was a messy, drawn-out fight and I so wish I still had evidence of it, wish that I REMEMBERED more of it because if I recall, it was totally awesome. And a gay rights fight.

This is what I remember. I was just browsing around on the internet doing my thing, whatever it was I did back then, when I found myself doing one of those little polls. I think the question was along the lines of "is homosexuality a choice", I filled out "no" because I can read scientific evidence and it doesn't bother me, and of course the results were overwhelmingly "YES". Like ridiculously. Having nothing to do with my young life, I pulled up the comments/message board thingie and saw all these inflammatory topics declaring that yes homosexuality is a sin and they should be punished, it's wrong, we're wrong, how can you support that, eat babies, shit like that.



As I went through this hysteria...well, frankly I dunno what happened. I guess the internet made me brave for a while and I said, "I don't have to take this!" Well, not that cool since my awesomeness hadn't quite developed then. But next thing I knew I was responding to a comment with something antagonistic about Christians (I was still in the Superior Atheist stage of my atheism) being hypocrites and how homosexuality was fine.

And then, you know, I got virtually jumped by what I recall being more or less a bunch of truck drivers laughing at me and calling me naive. But surprisingly I held myself and, a little like the Lone Swordsman, I just batted at and battled the stupid. Which may subconsciously be part of the reason I still can't do internet debate without eventually blowing up at someone because the arguing was pretty intense. At this point I already knew I was at the very least bisexual--it was kinda obvious--and I was told by people that didn't even know me that naturally, my mother LOVED me but HATED my "sin". To me the concept of sin largely didn't exist anymore and I said this, and when it came out that I was agnostic, even more hell broke loose. Joy.

I had folks emailing me spam letters & bible versus, if I recall correctly--and just why--and I just laughed, figuring it'd sting to have their religion insulted so mightily by a child (they didn't necessarily know I was a child though, I don't guess). Don't think I didn't get any support though, it was actually more or less my first interaction with some form of LGBT community. I remember one out lesbian emailing me to thank me for my support and I was mighty touched.

But, because sane people don't use AOL I guess, the support was a little weaksauce and we were ridiculously overwhelmed, so we eventually had to withdraw. And after a couple of days the discussion just reached its inevitable conclusion and finally died (yeah this wasn't just a one day thing, I definitely remember that). I remember telling mom about it, at least in part, and she just shook her head. Eh, so what, I felt mighty happy about myself, at least for mocking the stupid.

And that's about it. I don't know why I'd forget about such a clearly awesome event, but I've pretty much buried nearly all memories from those years *shudder* huh, who knows what awesome things I've done that I'm not aware of now...

Conscientious Objection & Atheism

I'm a lot better, thanks. Although last night I did just randomly skin my toe this morning because of the GODDAMN CLOSET.

*nurses it* Okay, I think we're all done with that random slew of emo posts, but I read something interesting this afternoon while I was desperately studying for a class I didn't go to (don't judge me).

I was reading this post from the Friendly Atheist about Agustin Aguayo, an army specialist. Long story short, Aguayo is an an agnostic and decides during his training that he could not kill another human being because it was against his beliefs, so he files as a conscientious objector (which I didn't even realize you could DO anymore).

Except, you know, atheists & agnostics apparently don't have morals (Aguayo says he believes in a "higher power" but doesn't attend any churches) so how can we conscientiously object to anything? Or so a judge felt:

… although Aguayo met many of the requirements of a conscientious objector according to military policy, he failed to meet one important non-official requirement: his belief system wasn’t Christian.

Aguayo wasn’t court-martialed that day. Instead the army told him he was going to Iraq whether he liked it or not — even if he had to be forcefully carried onto the plane. Soon after, Aguayo went AWOL again.

...

PFC Aguayo’s convictions do not appear to be sincerely held… PFC Aguayo did not identify any specific ways he has altered his behavior to accommodate his beliefs. Although practicing a religion is not a requirement for CO approval, PFC Aguayo has not discussed any equally significant source of his beliefs other than he was raised in a kind and respectful family.

So, at the end of the day and going AWOL repeatedly and clearly showing that he DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE TO KILL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, the consensus is that you don't go to church, you're non-christian, you don't get to conscientiously object. Which is just WEIRD and wrong for a couple of reasons, 1) it's pretty clear that not everyone in the army is a Christian so why is this even a "non-official" requirement, and 2) why are they trying to force this man to do what he's clearly decided he isn't up for.

Let me explain that second point first. As you guys know I identify as an atheist, but when I was a little one, for some reason I wanted to join the Marines. Really badly. The ceremonial swords looked so awesome and I wanted to feel like I was doing something I suppose. Mind you, back then I dreamed I could have met the weight requirement. But also back when I was fantasizing, if I'm not mistaken there was no war. Sure there was some military shit going down, but I'm pretty sure the major conflicts were over, far as the public knew anyway *side eyes the government* My dad was in the Navy, btw, before he got discharged for having whatever mental problems (thanks for passing those on, damnit).

But yeah, I wanted to be a Marine. I didn't factor in that whole war and killing folks business (or knowing the demon child I was, I probably didn't care). But as I got older--and this wasn't a conscious decision, but you know what? Killing is horrible and war is hell. I would never want to be part of that. And even after identifying as an Atheist, guess what? I still don't want to have to kill anyone. I don't think I could even in self-defense if my life was in danger (well, maybe). As much as I talk about how awesome it would be to burn my AmLit teacher's house down and terrorize his pets, please believe that I don't have it in me to burn his house down with him in it _{knowingly, and maybe I'd feel bad later}. I do not and I will not--it goes against my moral code.

Yes, folks, even without a deity to govern us, most real atheists (by that I mean not your emo Satanist neighbor down the street, we don't associate) still have MORALS and VALUES. I believe that this is just a part of the human experience. Not believing in God and not going to church doesn't make you an immoral or amoral asshole, it makes you godless. If in fact you are an immoral or amoral bastard, you were probably that way anyway regardless of your religious beliefs.

And that's where people get it twisted, that without any sort of moral structure humans would go nuts. And maybe that's true for some of us that claim we'd go on killing sprees if it weren't for Jaysus, but I can almost guarantee you that's not true for the rational 80% of the world, religious or not. It's just stupid. People, I believe, know what's right and what's wrong regardless of religion. We did before organized religion and we would continue to do so without it.

So on to that first point, well that doesn't really need to be explained much more. There's been some ongoing debate about these so-called atheists in foxholes, and atheists & agnostics have made it pretty clear we have no problem joining the army if we think it's right. But also, what about other folks that practice different religions in the army? Uh, Islam? Judaism--well, I guess that'd fall under Judeo-Christian. The point is, it's like they're implying that if you're not Christian you don't have the morals to conscientiously object, which is just silly considering that on the whole religions are actually PEACEFUL (yeah even Islam, I know right). Most of them have SOMETHING to the effect of "don't kill that person" unless you count the extremists that just want to go all hard on everything.

I will mention that there's also a fair debate on the Friendly Atheist post about why did the guy even join the Army if he knew he was just going to conscientiously object, and I honestly don't think that's fair. He'd already done a tour of duty, and even if he hadn't, damnit war is hell. I relate it back to my joining the Marines--I thought it was a special honor, but did I think about having to kill? Of course not, I just wanted to do it. This man isn't 5 or 6 years old, but he clearly joined the Army out of choice then realized that he just couldn't do this. How is this wrong? Would you rather put him out front and make him take other lives--something he doesn't believe in--and fuck his mind up for life? Perhaps he didn't think he was agnostic until he joined the army, we're not all born into non-religious families. As for whether he bit off more than he could chew and he's just chickening out, I say bless him for actually realizing he made a mistake and trying everything he can to get out of there. I don't think it's disrespectful towards the army, he clearly no longer wants to be there, why force him? That's just my outsider's look on it though.

See? Look at that, a big ol' substantial post! I'm so happy *sniff*

Do You Know Who You're Dying For?

Well, let me start by saying that having a blog that your friends know about makes it harder to talk shit about them. I need to stop advertising, I need that anonymity. I'm just snitching on myself damnit! But then again, maybe we both need to read this.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein

Anyway, so a friend and I were randomly discussing WWIII. I do hold it in my chest cavity, somewhere, that the world is headed towards a third World War. Eventually. It just seems inevitable. Wars just...are.

So my friend's Palestinian. You know there's the "issue" between Israel and Palestine right now--and yes I know "issue" is a vast, vast understatement. Only if "issue" means "all out senseless bloodshed". My friend is Palestinian and while this bloodshed is something I don't think I'll ever hope to understand, me and her talk about it sometimes. I mean, it's her home country & the country of her parents, how could it not wiggle into conversation? How could she not be on the side of her homeland? How could she not think of it. I understand all of this.

Tonight though she said something odd, to the effect of wanting to be a martyr for her country. I blink numbly at this and ask her why. She says she can't explain it, wanting to die for God and her country.

Now...not only do I draw the line at "God" but I draw the line at senseless destruction and violence. MARTYRDOM?

Not much time with much to do, look ahead and walk on through; no one's taking sides this time--it's you. -- "Summerland", King's X

Getting my delicate atheist sensibilities aside, I have never seen the "goodness" in martyrdom. It's a stupid act. I told her thinking like was what gets people killed--and it is. I honestly think so! Religion doesn't start all wars but it does start them. Martyrdom. Who are you dying for? Who believes in a God that wants them to die? That your eternal reward--after death--is? I don't actually care how devout or how devout you think you are, that is senseless.

I didn't want to talk about it anymore. It actually sort of frightened me that dreams of martyrdom had infected her thoughts. It frightens me when anyone ups and says they want to die for their god. It also pisses me off a little but it scared me more than anything. I suppose we all want to live and die for what you believe for...but haven't enough people been lost in this conflict, this war? Suicide bombers, holy missions...it all frightens me. I don't want anymore people to die for this.

It's play time but it's far to late...what you gonna give, is not enough, it's not enough for me. --"Wicked As It Seems", Keith Richards

What are you dying for? Do you know what you're dying for? That takes... a certainty and conviction I really don't have, I think. I'm not particularly afraid to die, but I'm not dying for something that I can't even be sure is there. Pie in the sky happiness. Dying for my country? But that's what soldiers do...not young girls wanting to go to medical school...isn't it?

Is she braver than I so I call her foolish? Or is she brave because she's foolish...is it so foolish? Is it my place to inform her that God, it doesn't exist, so what are you dying for?

It really is hard to explain...

_{Don't ask about my song selection.}

Seminar on the END TIMES

Little Facebook copypasta only more intelligent. Frankly I don't know what this is or why they're doing it, but I reserve the right to be judgmental.



I have one thing to say to this ad-ver-tise-ment:

...BWAAAAAAAAHAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAA!

[Edit: I really did laugh like that when I saw it.]

STOP IT. OMG STOP IT!

What is the point of this? What the fuck is there to understand about the "end times"? Is this some of that Left Behind mess? I hate this about as much as I can hate an inanimate object.



[Edit: Click to enlargenate, it gets blurry though.]

And let's examine this ad-ver-tise-ment. That purple thing off in the corner is just my thumb holding it.

Okay, let's see. We've got the symbolism of the bears, wolves...is that a fucking tiger? Dante refutes this.

Next, 10 WEEK MULTIMEDIA PROPHECY SERIES? Why the fuck is this ten weeks?! Why is it a DVD seminar? Ladies and gentlemen, I have questions that need dire answers, urgently. [Edit: I really am curious btw. The good folks doing this are a campus church group/hang out called the Well. My room mate used to visit there but she said they weren't shit more or less.]

Lastly, let me address that floating head. Alright, it's been addressed.

In conclusion, obviously if you don't want to attend this little...get together, you don't have to. But in the event that, in February, you feel that shit is so serious that you have to get your affairs in order and go "learn" about the "end time", I'm in L--- C--- room ---, across from the CPA. I took high school psychology and made a B in Intro to Sociology, WE CAN WORK IT OUT. Okay? Call me. [Edit: I'm not suggesting that you have issues if you wish to attend this seminar. You could be a perfectly well adjusted human being. You may also just want to know about the Christian book of Revelations. Perhaps you want to learn what all cultures & religions think of the so called "end of times" or "apocalypse" or "Armageddon". It's like a flood myth, everyone has their own perspective.

It's just that I doubt any of the above apply.]

Holiday Diversity, or: LOL.

Well, my screen is still blinding me but good news! There is no mass conspiracy against me and now my Buddy has made peace with his woman, again most MySpace dramedy style. I fucking guess. I do love it when drama wraps up nicely though. I'm officially free everyone!

Oh well, on to more important things. You all know how I feel about teh holidays, but you know what bugged me this year? The extreme lack of diversity in celebration. It seems moreso than every this year was strangely all about Christmas. Remember when people were getting in a tizzy about "happy holidays"? Well no more of that, cultural insensitivity is so IN right now! AHAHAHA.

Anyway, I first noticed it on campus many moons ago actually. Christmas trees and snow men and shit everywhere. No one bothered to wish me season's greetings or happy holiday, and I was tempted just to start telling folks I was Muslim just to watch their faces break up. But up at ETSU I just put it off to the fact that...well, it's ETSU.

Then, you know, I got home and it started occurring to me...the only place I was seeing holiday diversity was children's shows. It seems that only as children can you learn about Hanukkah & Kwanza and other holidays, but other than that it seems that no one even bothered to TRY this year. I mean in previous years past at least there were some attempts to acknowledge Those Other Events That Aren't Christmas but this year I scarcely saw any. Yes, Christmas is a major event and it makes sense to pander to that, I get that. And I'm not actually offended, but I just thought it was so...strange.

Then there were the movements about "keeping the 'christ' in Christmas" and the so-called War On Christmas 08. It finally occurred to me that I'm extremely lost because I have no idea who is trying to take the Christ out of Christmas (let's talk about the "mass" part and the fact that Christmas is based on a lie anyway and tra-lala~) and I'm not sure which insurgents have declared war on Christmas THIS year.

Man, it's been...odd. I can't decide if it's because I've been paying MORE attention this year or if things have just gotten...worse. When I saw people wishing Muslims merry Christmas I wanted to cringe and pop some faces. Who knows, maybe it's both. But it bugs me a little lot. Anyone else notice this little, uh, trend?

Homosexuality vs Atheism

Yeeeah, my wireless is alive you guys! *hugs library* I told my mother, I'm not going to DIE without 'net access on my laptop _{but secretly? YES I WAS.}

*looks around* Trying to type quietly...

Anyhow, you read my title right. This is going to be one of those things where I ask a bunch of questions and offer myself no answers. I've touched on this sparingly but I'm ready to go in depth about it. Soooo....

Atheism. I make no bones about being atheist. When I'm asked anyway...and I rarely get asked because I live in the Bible Belt where everyone is some sort of religious *shrug* eeevery oooone. But I've never pretended to be religious, even for free food. That's just wrong. If prodded or if it ever comes up, I proudly admit I's a godless heathen. I have no problem. I've only ever had a problem being atheist when I first made the transition from agnosticism, and from then on it's been smooth sailing. I'm not going to Hell for anything because there isn't one so please, stop throwing bibles at me.

HOWEVER.

I'm also queer ~_~ gay if you will. I say gay instead of lesbian...I...don't actually know why, but I prefer just "queer" as a kind of umbrella term. I hang around LGBTIA (did I get all the letters?) blogs, read coming out stories and...personally I don't have ONE to share.

Let me explain: I've come out about...3 times now I think. And two times it was just passed of as a phase *punches at the ceiling* Even though I know pretty clearly how I feel and who I am. And then the other time I was met with disgust *punch punch* So I just stopped "officially" coming out to anyone. I don't feel like I'm closeted mind you, I'm actually pretty open. Open in the sense that, like the atheism, I'm outwardly fond of the same sex (and...some of the opposite, keeps 'em on their toes). I've just never actually said "Hey guys, I'm kinda gay!" I'm not ashamed of it anymore, I'm just tired of being judged and yelled at and other such stupid shit ~_~ hmmm. I've even gotten mildly defensive about it. Frankly, I don't think it's anyone else's goddamn business but mine...uh, I digress.

Here's the main thing: Again, I live in the Bible Belt, and I'm an atheist. SHIT. I should be running from mobs daily right?

WRONG. WROOONG.

This has always been strange to me, that my adamant atheism (and yes, I am not only atheist but RATHER atheist) is actually MORE acceptable than my gayness. WHY. How the HELL does that work? At the very least I'd expect them to be on the same level of RAAAGE.

I ran one option last night: that I can be saved. I can be "saved" from atheism if I have an especially enterprising friend, I suppose (haha...no, please don't try this. It just makes me irate). But...well, couldn't I technically be saved from homosexuality too? Can't I be "reversed"?

Then another thought. Maybe, just maybe I give religious folk too little credit (no, I don't think they're all stupid btw). Perhaps it's because atheism is a philosophy (if you call it a religion you haven't been listening) and, if you want to accept it that way because I know a few people still don't, homosexuality is "genetic". This would mean that I couldn't actually be "saved" from my ungodly lifestyle because you can change a philosophy but NOT who you are on the inside. So if my homosexuality is indeed genetic (well, I do have a really flamboyant cousin) and my atheism is just a product of my sitting on the porch with a cape going "HMMMMMM." a lot, then that would mean I'm just flat out...damned? Something like that.

Both of those make sense in their own little way. But it still perplexes me that my atheism is usually more readily accepted than being gay. I suppose homosexuality still makes people quite uncomfortable, but I remember when atheism did too...but now it seems to be okay? So the prospect of me "choosing to be eternally damned"--I don't know who I'm quoting--versus the prospect of me being...eternally damned, somehow one of those is better than the other? Or am I applying too much of that silly logic? Personally I kinda go with my second hypothesis although I'm not about go conduct a survey or anything to prove it true or false.

Oh, and as for why this drives me crazy, it's because my atheism and my homosexuality are both integral parts of me, and it's just...damned WEIRD to have one side be acceptable but the other is spat on and cursed. Especially since the two aren't related (as in, I'm not...gay because I'm atheist or atheist because I'm gay, only I would put those together though). So yeah, I admit, it freaks me out a little bit.

And that was my thought provoking entry. I could do this shit all day.

The God and the Mole

So, I'm still watching El Topo. I'm actually almost finished with it, what's taking so long? God, there's an awful lot to digest in that movie...as is the case with most surrealist/indie/dear-mercy-what-did-i-just-watch films. The BEST of them anyway.

Speaking of God (kinda), last night I wound up buying God is Not Great by Chris Hitchens. I'm trying to put more literature in my life relating to my interests and who I am, and shit, why not atheism. Seriously, that was what I said.




I always wonder how my fellow atheists can be so eloquent about their philosophy and it makes me jealous a wee bit that they're more often than not SO damn articulate and confident (this probably comes from, I dunno, having an education mayhaps). No, I'm not expecting Hitchens to somehow make me more edumacated or anything although he might teach me some new words. No, I got the book because I prefer more personal accounts of self-discovery rather than, say, a manual. Like I had a choice between the Atheist Manifesto and God is Not Great, I skipped over to GING (oh look, an acronym!) because it was more personable and not just...facts.

I'll get more into that book later and my other reasons for getting it. This morning I was just having thoughts as I was watching El Topo. For some reason I thought to myself, "I can watch this movie and pick out all the religious symbolism and understand the allegories, and yet I don't believe in any of it."

Wow, where the hell did that thought come from? My enjoyment of a movie with religious & philosophical symbolism scarcely has anything to do with my atheism does it? No, it doesn't. I can casually watch a movie with such images and understand what it means and it's not much to do with being atheist :/ it's the same way that I can occasionally watch religious programming (mostly kid's shows) and keep my beliefs and theirs separate, and also not get horribly offended. Nothing to do with each other. But why do I think this way, like they should clash in my head for some reason? Hmm.

I also mentally commented on the semi-irony of my purchasing GING and still watching El Topo. Now where did THAT come from, I wondered again. That's just silly, considering that at its heart El Topo isn't so much about religion itself as it is about a personal journey (as I see it). So again, why did I think this way, and why just now? Odd to me. I must be hyped up on my first atheist text. I get overly excited sometimes, I admit.

Persuading Atheists to become Christians

Now with instructions!

My friend Diaphanus found this funny thing, and he had such fun with it I think I'll try too. This is going to be long and...I hope I refrained from "Christian bashing" or at least lots of it. My thoughts in italics.

The problem with these "directions" start in the opening paragraph even:

Dealing with a friend that has different beliefs than you can be frustrating for both yourself and the non-believer. Learning how to deal with it can be extremely difficult and you might want to try to convert them by persuading them to believe.

You know, if you're so bothered by your "friend's" beliefs that you actually feel you must LAY HANDS UPON THEM and convert them to your damn system, perhaps you aren't friends.

Maybe you can keep "hinting" from time to time and make some progress...

No, that would be annoying and not get anything done.

The steps are broken up into 3 easy sections for your missionary quest: Prepare, Discussions, and Develop Your Friendship. These directions are odd: they suggest that you do things like charity work and generally being a moral human being, all to convert your "friend" to Christianity. What? Shouldn't you be directing traffic and giving blood anyway? How the hell does that convince anyone that Christianity is better than, say, Islam or Zoroastrianism (shit, I spelled that without a dictionary)?

I digress...I'm not going to go through all of these, just the easy ones.

Most Atheists have high intelligence -- probably have an education -- and have spent a lot of time thinking about reasons TO believe.

I think more about throwing rocks thanks.

You have to give them a real reason -- not just an emotional one!

And, unfortunately, this is where most of these wanna-be missionaries fail.

You need to read and think a lot too. Collect all the compelling evidence that is available that demonstrates your beliefs are true.

"Compelling evidence", I assume, being the fact that wind is invisible and some shit in the Bible *shrug* yeah, that'll reel me in.

Think about your friendship. Are the two of you close? If not, try to increase your friendship before attempting to influence their religious beliefs.

That's...really petty.

However, do not do this merely because you want to convert them. You must have a deep and true interest in being their friend and being there for them throughout the entire process, which may last years.

That's even pettier.

Show by conduct how Christianity has impacted your own life in a positive way (Matthew 5:15-16).

I get that all the time, it hasn't worked. Am I just stubborn?

While quoting the Bible at every possible opportunity may be a bit much, saying "I thank God for... (something goes your way)" should be fine. It may also be useful to tell your friend about people you've met at church; when listing their good qualities, include that they are "religious" as a very far side note. Their religious fervor is not going to impress the atheist.

Damn right. Neither does your "missionary work" either though.

Now on to the Discussions section. Here's where it gets...odd.

Discuss that human brains work with much more than just intellect and logic and that when things go beyond our capability to understand then having faith in something larger than natural processes can bring extreme peace.

Or, you know, more questions and shit--well I'll be, that's how I "deconverted" in the first place! Haha...haaah...funny how things work...

Maybe it's not the answer, but it is peace, and peace in itself is a huge reward, a great return for faith.

Guys, I don't need religious faith for peace thanks.

Make a never ending list: inspiration, intuition, dread, hope, fear, faith, industriousness, procrastination, calmness, anxiety, anger, ambition, initiative, enthusiasm, boredom, fatigue, illness, health,... family, friendship, trust, honesty...

DO NOT do this. It's silly and has nothing to do with what's below.

* To know "everything" is impossible but being a functioning human and striving further to "know" more... Priceless!

Soooo...are you saying I should just numb myself to more knowledge because it's impossible to know everything? Since when was I even TRYING to learn everything because I'm an atheist? Go on, Christianity.

* Discuss how self-awareness, self-development and personality all point to highly organized and purposeful traits -- not randomness in our mental processes

To this I say, "And?" Try again missionary. Shit, this article is making me cranky.

Point out that "natural" scientific processes called entropy and chaos do not normally improve things: so how did life "happen" when nature is about dissolution, oxidation, mineral deposits, poison, corrosion, erosion, rot and breaking down "not" about building up...

You know all those big words, grasshopper, but not how to use them. And you just totally misunderstood grade school science it seems.

Talk about the existence of anything. Express as best you can the amazing intricacy of life and complexity of human "intelligence."

Another misstep with the junior missionary is that they can never really "explain" the existence of anything, let alone the "complexity of human intelligence.

Last is the Friendship section. Eh.

Give your friend practical advice for their problems from the Holy Book, such as from the book of Proverbs.

Refrain from this, missionary. It's just irritating. When I come to my religious "friend" for real advice, the last thing I want is to be lambasted with proverbs.

Go slowly about all of this until your friend is completely comfortable and accepts your inputs, and thinks of you as a "real friend" who just happens to be religious. Probably mere acquaintances can not break through the wall of "absolute" logic -- faith is not totally illogical, but is not pure logic.

First, you should already be "real friends" before trying to even attempt this ridiculous deception and trickery. And faith isn't illogical but not pure logic? Go on, Christianity.

Know when to ease up. Some people just truly don't want to be Christian. If this is the case with your friend, and you've tried everything else here, don't push any further. There is nothing more that you can do. Don't let it be cause to end your friendship, but know when to leave them be.

Best tip in the damn article.


The best way to convert atheists to Christianity? Don't. Just don't.